Discussion:
SAC Calculations for "Multi-Level" Diving
mag3
2007-04-07 20:13:35 UTC
In preparation for my "Advanced Nitrox / Deco" course, I'm reviewing concepts like SAC rate calculations.
I'm wondering if there are any decent algorithms for computing SAC for "multi-level" dives or is it just
SOP to use the deepest depth and "total time." One formula for a "single depth" calculation I've seen is:

SAC = (psi consumed / total bottom time{min} ) / ((depth{ft} + 33) / 33).

Now the example given assumes a depth of 60ft and a bottom time of 40min + 3 min safety stop at
20ft, so total time = 43 min, but doesn't take into account the change of depth from 60 to 20 ft,
or perhaps time at interim depths before reaching the safety stop. With 2500psi consumed, the SAC
by the above formula = 20.7 psi/min. Of course, this formula also doesn't take into account the tank
size/volume either so it would have to be recalculated for different tanks.

In any event, is there such a thing as a "multi-level" algorithm for SAC (using different times at different
depths), or better still, some existing software to compute multi-level SACs (that, perhaps, may also take
tank size into account)?

As an aside, I find it very concerning that when I Google SAC Rate on certain Scuba websites, I get
such responses as "Sacramento Mortgage Rates" and "Refinance Quotes" etc. etc.

Thanks.

____________________________________________
Regards,

Arnold

Visit my Travel Photo Website: http://www.mag3.biz/travel_photos/home_page.html

Absolutely 100% SPAM free!!!! HONEST!!! :-)
Scott
2007-04-07 20:38:33 UTC
Post by mag3
In preparation for my "Advanced Nitrox / Deco" course, I'm reviewing
concepts like SAC rate calculations.
Post by mag3
I'm wondering if there are any decent algorithms for computing SAC for
"multi-level" dives or is it just
Post by mag3
SOP to use the deepest depth and "total time." One formula for a "single
SAC = (psi consumed / total bottom time{min} ) / ((depth{ft} + 33) / 33).
Now the example given assumes a depth of 60ft and a bottom time of 40min +
3 min safety stop at
Post by mag3
20ft, so total time = 43 min, but doesn't take into account the change of
depth from 60 to 20 ft,
Post by mag3
or perhaps time at interim depths before reaching the safety stop. With
2500psi consumed, the SAC
Post by mag3
by the above formula = 20.7 psi/min. Of course, this formula also doesn't
take into account the tank
Post by mag3
size/volume either so it would have to be recalculated for different tanks.
In any event, is there such a thing as a "multi-level" algorithm for SAC
(using different times at different
Post by mag3
depths), or better still, some existing software to compute multi-level
SACs (that, perhaps, may also take
Post by mag3
tank size into account)?
As an aside, I find it very concerning that when I Google SAC Rate on
certain Scuba websites, I get
Post by mag3
such responses as "Sacramento Mortgage Rates" and "Refinance Quotes" etc. etc.
Thanks.
____________________________________________
Regards,
Arnold
30 seconds returned the following;

http://tinyurl.com/2ywuzy
Al Wells
2007-04-07 21:54:13 UTC
Post by mag3
In preparation for my "Advanced Nitrox / Deco" course, I'm reviewing concepts like SAC rate calculations.
I'm wondering if there are any decent algorithms for computing SAC for "multi-level" dives or is it just
SAC = (psi consumed / total bottom time{min} ) / ((depth{ft} + 33) / 33).
You determine your SAC at a single depth. You record the PSI and
starting time at the start of the test and then the PSI and time at the
end. You swim at a normal pace for the entire time of the test. It
doesn't have to be your whole dive. Your instructor will most likely
supervise this.

PSI/minute is specific to one size tank. In this class, you will be
using a sling tank of deco gas that is most likely smaller than the one
(s) on your back. What you need to determine and use for calculations is
cu ft or liters per minute. When you plan a multi-level dive, you use
your SAC * time * depth in ata * whatever fudge or safety factors you
are using to determine the gas requirement for each depth segment and
then add them up to get your total gas requirement for each gas you are
carrying.

The deco software I use lets you plug in your SAC for each segment and

There is a SAC calculator here: http://cisatlantic.com/trimix/tools.htm
under "Other Applications".
mag3
2007-04-08 04:27:30 UTC
Post by Al Wells
The deco software I use lets you plug in your SAC for each segment and
There is a SAC calculator here: http://cisatlantic.com/trimix/tools.htm
under "Other Applications".
That's a nice site in general. I'm sure it will come in handy later.

Thanks. The SAC calculator is pretty good.

____________________________________________
Regards,

Arnold
Al Wells
2007-04-08 11:17:35 UTC
Post by mag3
Post by Al Wells
There is a SAC calculator here: http://cisatlantic.com/trimix/tools.htm
under "Other Applications".
That's a nice site in general. I'm sure it will come in handy later.
The site hasn't been updated for several years, but it has a lot of good
information and entertainment. It was born during the tech diving feuds
of the mid to late 90's and early 2000's. The owner is Jim Cobb in
Virginia Beach. Much of what you read there may not agree with what your
TDI instructor tells you.
mag3
2007-04-08 11:47:50 UTC
Post by Al Wells
Post by mag3
That's a nice site in general. I'm sure it will come in handy later.
The site hasn't been updated for several years, but it has a lot of good
information and entertainment. It was born during the tech diving feuds
of the mid to late 90's and early 2000's. The owner is Jim Cobb in
Virginia Beach. Much of what you read there may not agree with what your
TDI instructor tells you.
Well, as is said here time and time again, it's the "instructor" that counts. But it's
still a pretty decent reference point. It's good to learn things like this now as it
may influence future decisions like equipment purchases etc. (computers that
actually *do* some of this stuff etc. - or at least capture the data so you can
do it).

____________________________________________
Regards,

Arnold
Al Wells
2007-04-08 12:29:52 UTC
Post by mag3
Well, as is said here time and time again, it's the "instructor" that counts. But it's
still a pretty decent reference point. It's good to learn things like this now as it
may influence future decisions like equipment purchases etc. (computers that
actually *do* some of this stuff etc. - or at least capture the data so you can
do it).
I will be happy to show you my neat, elegantly simple gear setup this
spring and point out a few walking CF's ;-)
"Magilla"
2007-04-08 14:08:43 UTC
Post by Al Wells
I will be happy to show you my neat, elegantly simple gear setup this
spring and point out a few walking CF's ;-)
Careful Al, someone will come along and call you a "cultist". <grin>

Curtis
Douglas W "Popeye" Frederick
2007-04-08 19:19:13 UTC
Post by "Magilla"
Post by Al Wells
I will be happy to show you my neat, elegantly simple gear setup this
spring and point out a few walking CF's ;-)
Careful Al, someone will come along and call you a "cultist". <grin>
No, a "Kool-Aid drinker"... :-)
Scott
2007-04-08 21:01:52 UTC
Post by Douglas W "Popeye" Frederick
Post by "Magilla"
Post by Al Wells
I will be happy to show you my neat, elegantly simple gear setup this
spring and point out a few walking CF's ;-)
Careful Al, someone will come along and call you a "cultist". <grin>
No, a "Kool-Aid drinker"... :-)
Douglas W "Popeye" Frederick
2007-04-08 21:07:44 UTC
Post by Scott
Post by Douglas W "Popeye" Frederick
Post by "Magilla"
Post by Al Wells
I will be happy to show you my neat, elegantly simple gear setup this
spring and point out a few walking CF's ;-)
Careful Al, someone will come along and call you a "cultist".
<grin>
No, a "Kool-Aid drinker"... :-)
Got it.

No, a "Kool-Aid drinkerÂ© "... :-)
Art Greenberg
2007-04-08 14:31:26 UTC
Post by Al Wells
Post by mag3
Well, as is said here time and time again, it's the "instructor" that counts. But it's
still a pretty decent reference point. It's good to learn things like this now as it
may influence future decisions like equipment purchases etc. (computers that
actually *do* some of this stuff etc. - or at least capture the data so you can
do it).
I will be happy to show you my neat, elegantly simple gear setup this
spring and point out a few walking CF's ;-)
--
Art Greenberg
artg at eclipse dot net
Douglas W "Popeye" Frederick
2007-04-08 12:57:04 UTC
Post by Al Wells
Post by mag3
Post by Al Wells
There is a SAC calculator here: http://cisatlantic.com/trimix/tools.htm
under "Other Applications".
That's a nice site in general. I'm sure it will come in handy later.
The site hasn't been updated for several years, but it has a lot of good
information and entertainment. It was born during the tech diving feuds
of the mid to late 90's and early 2000's. The owner is Jim Cobb in
Virginia Beach. Much of what you read there may not agree with what your
TDI instructor tells you.
<cough>
El Stroko Guapo
2007-04-08 17:47:19 UTC
Post by Al Wells
Post by mag3
In preparation for my "Advanced Nitrox / Deco" course, I'm reviewing concepts like SAC rate calculations.
I'm wondering if there are any decent algorithms for computing SAC for "multi-level" dives or is it just
SAC = (psi consumed / total bottom time{min} ) / ((depth{ft} + 33) / 33).
You determine your SAC at a single depth. You record the PSI and
starting time at the start of the test and then the PSI and time at the
end. You swim at a normal pace for the entire time of the test. It
doesn't have to be your whole dive. Your instructor will most likely
supervise this.
PSI/minute is specific to one size tank. In this class, you will be
using a sling tank of deco gas that is most likely smaller than the one
(s) on your back. What you need to determine and use for calculations is
cu ft or liters per minute. When you plan a multi-level dive, you use
your SAC * time * depth in ata * whatever fudge or safety factors you
are using to determine the gas requirement for each depth segment and
then add them up to get your total gas requirement for each gas you are
carrying.
The deco software I use lets you plug in your SAC for each segment and
There is a SAC calculator here: http://cisatlantic.com/trimix/tools.htm
under "Other Applications".
It's also pretty easy to make a consumption calculator on an Excel

Remember that it doesn't take much to throw yer calculations way off,
especially for yer bottom gas: colder than expected, more current, big
mean sharks chasing you, finding a heavy treasure, having to work harder
to detach yer find fromm the hull...

And as Al implies, better to use CF, not psi, for yer calculations, then
convert that to the specific tank for that dive.

esg
mag3
2007-04-08 17:58:11 UTC
Post by El Stroko Guapo
Post by Al Wells
There is a SAC calculator here: http://cisatlantic.com/trimix/tools.htm
under "Other Applications".
Remember that it doesn't take much to throw yer calculations way off,
especially for yer bottom gas: colder than expected, more current, big
mean sharks chasing you, finding a heavy treasure, having to work harder
to detach yer find fromm the hull...
Understood. "Other than normal" activity is always a complicating factor. My little
stint at the "City of Washington" site bears witness to that.
Post by El Stroko Guapo
And as Al implies, better to use CF, not psi, for yer calculations, then
convert that to the specific tank for that dive.
Thankfully, the calculator to which Al refers above gives the solution in CF (you
enter the tank size in the window).

____________________________________________
Regards,

Arnold

Visit my Travel Photo Website: http://www.mag3.biz/travel_photos/home_page.html

Absolutely 100% SPAM free!!!! HONEST!!! :-)
Ron
2007-04-08 01:08:02 UTC
Post by mag3
In preparation for my "Advanced Nitrox / Deco" course, I'm reviewing concepts like SAC rate calculations.
I'm wondering if there are any decent algorithms for computing SAC for "multi-level" dives or is it just
SOP to use the deepest depth and "total time."
The easy way is to have or borrow a computer that will do the
work for you. The Suunto Cobra (and probably many other
air-integrated models) records your starting pressure, your
ending pressure, and it computes your average depth for the dive.
If you download it to a PC and use their divelog software, you
simply tell it your tank's capacity and rated pressure, and the
SAC is computed for you.
I get a SAC figure for each dive. It shows me how well I'm
doing and how strenuous each dive was.
Since the SAC doesn't significantly change with depth, your
alternative would be to make a single-level calculation and just
use that figure. Decide which level you want to work with and
just note the starting pressure and time and the ending pressure
and time before leaving that depth.
--
Ron
(user ron
in domain spamblocked.com)
mag3
2007-04-08 04:25:55 UTC
Post by Ron
Since the SAC doesn't significantly change with depth, your
alternative would be to make a single-level calculation and just
use that figure. Decide which level you want to work with and
just note the starting pressure and time and the ending pressure
and time before leaving that depth.
Which may as well then be the deepest depth as that would invlove the greatest
consumption of gas per time interval, all other things being equal.

Either that, or I can average several readings at several depths. I just have to
record PSI levels manually as that seems the only thing my computer doesn't
record (and it is air-integrated).

The SAC calculator Al recommened is pretty good actually.

____________________________________________
Regards,

Arnold
JRE
2007-04-08 07:52:19 UTC
Post by mag3
In preparation for my "Advanced Nitrox / Deco" course, I'm reviewing concepts like SAC rate calculations.
I'm wondering if there are any decent algorithms for computing SAC for "multi-level" dives or is it just
<snuip>

Best answer: http://www.hhssoftware.com/v-planner/ (or something similar).

Next best answer: Just plan all the levels separately and add them together.

John Eells
Greg Mossman
2007-04-08 23:52:26 UTC
Post by mag3
In preparation for my "Advanced Nitrox / Deco" course
In preparation for my "Advanced Nitrox / Deco" course,
Wow.
Post by mag3
Wow time flies when you're having fun I guess. It's been less than 1 year since I became a
rec.scuban (and just over 1 year since I started diving), and already I have my "Rescue Diver"
cert (picked that up in Bora Bora 09/01), and I just did my last two specialty certs off the NJ
Shore a week ago (Wreck Diver/Deep Diver). I have just 5 more dives to go before my PADI
"Master Scuba Diver" certification { Scary, huh? } :-))))))
Scary indeed.

In January 2007, just a few months later and a few months ago, you
wrote about an incident in the Florida Keys for which you were
woefully unprepared. Unprepared. For a shallow dive. In the
frickin' Florida Keys.
Post by mag3
Several factors here.
1) Dealing with that degree of Seas and surge for the first time;
2) Dealing with an increased air consumption than on previous dives for the same time period;
3) Dealing with overall anxiety about the situation;
4) Inexperience with this type of diving (all my other dives were either planned with a buddy or
led by and instructor or DM);
5) Being inactive for 3-4 months (not "physically" as you say, but experience/psychologywise);
That's a lot of excuses. For a shallow dive. In the frickin'
Florida Keys.
Post by mag3
least for now, I need "logged
dives" until I get to the magic 100+ range. After that, I'll have enough to qualify for whatever certs I might
want to do thereafter (eg. TDI "Solo" Cert), and it won't matter as much if the dive isn't "logged" per se. If
Again, back in January. Not even 100 dives yet, though you were
trying to get them as fast as possible to get more badges.
Post by mag3
I'm not sure how "technical" I plan to go in the future (I can see doing some decompression profiles, perhaps
some trimix dives etc.), but entry to the above group is a reasonable longer term goal for me and one to which
I will aspire
And now it's April and you're already taking a tech class. That's a
"reasonable longer term"??? Just a few months ago, in the frickin'
Florida Keys, you couldn't keep your buoyancy on a shallow reef dive.
You lost your buddy. And now you're taking a tech class?
Unbelievable.
Post by mag3
I will aspire
You misspelled expire.

mag3
2007-04-09 01:50:40 UTC
Post by Greg Mossman
Post by mag3
I will aspire
You misspelled expire.
No, I didn't.
Post by Greg Mossman
Well, since you aren't my "old lady," then why worry about it?

Yes, I had a bad day back in January. But I got over it. I had been idle for 4 months
and went right into a day with 25mph winds and 6-8 foot seas. I wasn't prepared for it.
But I managed to make it back to the boat on my own without assistance and with
455+ PSI left in my 80cf tank. And when I realized I wasn't prepared, I stopped and
didn't put myself into further danger that day. And not only that, but I managed to
keep my breakfast down when some of the more "experienced" divers were losing
their's over the rail. Since then, I've done 14 more dives at sites with more severe
currents and at much deeper depths and had no trouble at all, and no anxiety
whatsoever. Depth/Time doesn't bother me. Surge did. And now I expect it won't,
since I now know what to expect when diving in the "Frickin' Florida keys." I really
don't think I'll have the same problem again.

And what does any of that have to do with taking a class? There's nothing wrong
with taking the class. The class dives are in a controlled environment (there at Dutch)
supervised by two instructors (both of whom are SDI/TDI "Instructor Trainers" and PADI
"Master Instructors." The deco profiles are minimal. The requirements for the class are 50
logged dives (I have 60 now) some of which should be ocean dives in cold water (which I
also have) and to have basic Nitrox certification (another "tech" class BTW and which I've
been for over 1 year with over 50% of my dives being Nitrox), and to be Dry Suit Certified
(which I will be next month). Now does this mean I'm going to go right out and do several
"Bikini Atoll" multi-deco dives or attempt to penetrate the Spiegel Grove the next day? Of
course not.

I may not be as "experienced" as most of you, but I'm sufficiently confident in my skills
and experience to take this class. And so are my instructors, or they wouldn't let me take
it. There are some dives I want to do at around 130fsw but that might go into a deco scenario
if I want to stay down that far longer than 10 minutes. And that's all I want at this point.
No more, honest!

I appreciate your concern Greg, but I really wouldn't worry. I'm not.

____________________________________________
Regards,

Arnold
Greg Mossman
2007-04-09 03:44:22 UTC
Post by mag3
And what does any of that have to do with taking a class? There's nothing wrong
with taking the class. The class dives are in a controlled environment (there at Dutch)
supervised by two instructors (both of whom are SDI/TDI "Instructor Trainers" and PADI
"Master Instructors." The deco profiles are minimal.
I may not be as "experienced" as most of you, but I'm sufficiently confident in my skills
and experience to take this class. And so are my instructors, or they wouldn't let me take
it. There are some dives I want to do at around 130fsw but that might go into a deco scenario
if I want to stay down that far longer than 10 minutes. And that's all I want at this point.
No more, honest!

But you're taking a tech class with only 60 dives under your belt, in
a quarry, then expecting to do your "deco scenario" in the real ocean,
right? The same ocean that chewed you up and spit you out just a few
months ago on a shallow reef dive in the frickin' Florida Keys.
Amazing.
Post by mag3
I appreciate your concern Greg, but I really wouldn't worry. I'm not.
I'm not concerned about you. More like amazed at your indifference to
life and astonished you haven't started instructor training yet.
Don't you only need 60 dives to do that? What are you waiting for?
mag3
2007-04-09 08:43:45 UTC
Post by Greg Mossman
Post by mag3
I may not be as "experienced" as most of you, but I'm sufficiently confident in my skills
and experience to take this class. And so are my instructors, or they wouldn't let me take
it. There are some dives I want to do at around 130fsw but that might go into a deco scenario
if I want to stay down that far longer than 10 minutes. And that's all I want at this point.
No more, honest!
No, not these instructors. If I wasn't ready for something, t hey'd tell me. They actually do have
reputations to protect.
Post by Greg Mossman
But you're taking a tech class with only 60 dives under your belt, in
a quarry, then expecting to do your "deco scenario" in the real ocean,
right? The same ocean that chewed you up and spit you out just a few
months ago on a shallow reef dive in the frickin' Florida Keys.
Amazing.
As stated before, I'm a bit better prepared for the "FFK's" :-) then I was in January. I know
how dive ops work there, and I know it's OK to surface if need be to get your bearings then
go back down to make your way back to the boat. And I know to do that now when I need to
(ie. when "rule of 3rds" kicks in).

We'll certainly find out this June when I get "back on the horse" of which I fell of. Too bad you
won't be there to see how I do!
Post by Greg Mossman
Post by mag3
I appreciate your concern Greg, but I really wouldn't worry. I'm not.
I'm not concerned about you. More like amazed at your indifference to
life
I am *not* indifferent to life as you say. I care a lot about living, and that's why I take classes
to get the training I need for the things I want to do. As previously stated, all I want to do here
is be prepared to extend my bottom time on a dive that skirts the "recreational" depth and time
limits by just a hair. I'm not trying to do some super huge technical monster dive Not at all.
Post by Greg Mossman
and astonished you haven't started instructor training yet.
Don't you only need 60 dives to do that? What are you waiting for?
For DM you actually need only 20 to start and 60 by the time you finish. And yes, all the other
prerequisites I have already. So what am I waiting for? Several things:

1) The desire to do it (which I don't have right now);

2) For my stamina and physical strength to improve (which will over time);

3) For my diving skills to improve to the point where I'm confident enough to teach
them to others (for which the "Solo" card and 100+ logged dives I seek will help a little);

I have no desire to work professionally as a DM or instructor - Doesn't pay enough. But I do have a
10 y/o niece and 7 y/o nephew (see, I *do* have something to live for) for which I'd like to be there
to supervise their training when the time comes. Yes, some instructors I've worked with (and not the
two I'm taking this current course from), have sought to DM me already. It is I who told them "no,"
not 'till the above are satisfied.

So are you satisfied now???

____________________________________________
Regards,

Arnold
Art Greenberg
2007-04-09 12:12:38 UTC
Post by mag3
No, not these instructors. If I wasn't ready for something, t hey'd
tell me. They actually do have reputations to protect.
They won't know until they see you perform the skills required for this
class. And they'll have at least some of your money by then, which is
really all that matters to them.

Anyway, Arnold, I think you're missing Greg's point.

You might be an exception, but generally speaking, one doesn't gain the
kind of skill you'll need to dive safely without actually diving. And
60 dives isn't enough to have the foundation you'll need to go on to
technical diving.

You're relatively young. You have plenty of time. Take your time. I
guarantee you'll enjoy all this at least as much if you do. And I
guarantee you won't be missing anything if you don't move so fast.
--
Art Greenberg
artg at eclipse dot net
j***@hotmail.com
2007-04-09 14:27:51 UTC
Post by mag3
Post by Greg Mossman
Post by mag3
I may not be as "experienced" as most of you, but I'm sufficiently confident in my skills
and experience to take this class. And so are my instructors, or they wouldn't let me take
it. There are some dives I want to do at around 130fsw but that might go into a deco scenario
if I want to stay down that far longer than 10 minutes. And that's all I want at this point.
No more, honest!
No, not these instructors. If I wasn't ready for something, t hey'd tell me. They actually do have
reputations to protect.
Post by Greg Mossman
But you're taking a tech class with only 60 dives under your belt, in
a quarry, then expecting to do your "deco scenario" in the real ocean,
right? The same ocean that chewed you up and spit you out just a few
months ago on a shallow reef dive in the frickin' Florida Keys.
Amazing.
As stated before, I'm a bit better prepared for the "FFK's" :-) then I was in January. I know
how dive ops work there, and I know it's OK to surface if need be to get your bearings then
go back down to make your way back to the boat. And I know to do that now when I need to
(ie. when "rule of 3rds" kicks in).
We'll certainly find out this June when I get "back on the horse" of which I fell of. Too bad you
won't be there to see how I do!
Post by Greg Mossman
Post by mag3
I appreciate your concern Greg, but I really wouldn't worry. I'm not.
I'm not concerned about you. More like amazed at your indifference to
life
I am *not* indifferent to life as you say. I care a lot about living, and that's why I take classes
to get the training I need for the things I want to do. As previously stated, all I want to do here
is be prepared to extend my bottom time on a dive that skirts the "recreational" depth and time
limits by just a hair. I'm not trying to do some super huge technical monster dive Not at all.
Post by Greg Mossman
and astonished you haven't started instructor training yet.
Don't you only need 60 dives to do that? What are you waiting for?
For DM you actually need only 20 to start and 60 by the time you finish. And yes, all the other
1) The desire to do it (which I don't have right now);
2) For my stamina and physical strength to improve (which will over time);
3) For my diving skills to improve to the point where I'm confident enough to teach
them to others (for which the "Solo" card and 100+ logged dives I seek will help a little);
I have no desire to work professionally as a DM or instructor - Doesn't pay enough. But I do have a
10 y/o niece and 7 y/o nephew (see, I *do* have something to live for) for which I'd like to be there
to supervise their training when the time comes. Yes, some instructors I've worked with (and not the
two I'm taking this current course from), have sought to DM me already. It is I who told them "no,"
not 'till the above are satisfied.
So are you satisfied now???
____________________________________________
Regards,
Arnold
OMG Arnold you may be a nice kid, but diving with you would be like
sitting on gunpowder barrel and playing with matches. Time to grow
up. First answer yourself simple question - why do you dive? I have
strange impression that you have some kind of inferiority complex and
scuba is your way to compensate it.

Janusz
Grumman-581
2007-04-09 21:59:15 UTC
Post by j***@hotmail.com
OMG Arnold you may be a nice kid, but diving with you would be like
sitting on gunpowder barrel and playing with matches. Time to grow
up. First answer yourself simple question - why do you dive? I have
strange impression that you have some kind of inferiority complex and
scuba is your way to compensate it.
The number of badges on a person's wetsuit is inversely proportional
to the person's self-confidence level...
j***@hotmail.com
2007-04-10 12:38:27 UTC
Post by Grumman-581
Post by j***@hotmail.com
OMG Arnold you may be a nice kid, but diving with you would be like
sitting on gunpowder barrel and playing with matches. Time to grow
up. First answer yourself simple question - why do you dive? I have
strange impression that you have some kind of inferiority complex and
scuba is your way to compensate it.
The number of badges on a person's wetsuit is inversely proportional
to the person's self-confidence level...
unless he is a boy scout

Janusz

P.S. C-card collectors tend to be self-confident what usually doesn't
translates as safe divers
Greg Mossman
2007-04-09 17:05:13 UTC
Post by mag3
As stated before, I'm a bit better prepared for the "FFK's" :-) then I was in January. I know
how dive ops work there, and I know it's OK to surface if need be to get your bearings then
go back down to make your way back to the boat. And I know to do that now when I need to
(ie. when "rule of 3rds" kicks in).
Good start. You still have a lot to learn before you engage in any
more learning.
Post by mag3
I am *not* indifferent to life as you say. I care a lot about living, and that's why I take classes
to get the training I need for the things I want to do. As previously stated, all I want to do here
is be prepared to extend my bottom time on a dive that skirts the "recreational" depth and time
limits by just a hair. I'm not trying to do some super huge technical monster dive Not at all.
Bullshit. The TDI Advanced Nitrox/Deco. Procedures class trains you
to go to 150' with up to a half-hour of mandatory deco. That's more
than a "hair".

If you merely want to extend your bottom time skirting the
"recreational" depth and time, you don't need a class. When you can
responsibly manage your own gas, and with the use of practically any
dive computer, you can easily skirt the limits by just a hair.

But with a card telling you that you're certified to 150' for a half-
hour of deco, why stop there? Heck, you're narced at that depth, with
absolutely no experience being narced, so why would you stop? Do it
solo even, once you have the solo card.

What you lack is the experience that can tell you what your limits
are. Until then, you're relying on what your card "allows" you to do

And that's my first point, in a nutshell: experience breeds a good
diver as much or more than any class. Too much class can be dangerous
when you haven't yet honed your basic instincts.

My second point is, why rush it? Wake up and smell the roses. Except
for a handful of wrecks around the world, there's plenty of great
diving above 130'. What is so important below 130' that you can't
wait for a few more years of experience before getting there, even if
Douglas W "Popeye" Frederick
2007-04-10 01:41:54 UTC
Post by Greg Mossman
Post by mag3
I may not be as "experienced" as most of you, but I'm sufficiently
confident in my skills
and experience to take this class. And so are my instructors, or they
wouldn't let me take
it. There are some dives I want to do at around 130fsw but that might go
into a deco scenario
if I want to stay down that far longer than 10 minutes. And that's all I
want at this point.
No more, honest!
No, not these instructors. If I wasn't ready for something, they'd tell
me. They actually do have
reputations to protect.
I got my Advanced Nitrox and Deep Air card about 5 months after I got
certed, although I had more dives than you.

The Deep Air dive was 205fsw.

It was about the time I got my Trimix Blender's card.

Proceed at your own risk. :-)
Danlw
2007-04-10 02:02:35 UTC
Post by Douglas W "Popeye" Frederick
Post by Greg Mossman
Post by mag3
I may not be as "experienced" as most of you, but I'm sufficiently
confident in my skills
and experience to take this class. And so are my instructors, or they
wouldn't let me take
it. There are some dives I want to do at around 130fsw but that might
go into a deco scenario
if I want to stay down that far longer than 10 minutes. And that's all
I want at this point.
No more, honest!
No, not these instructors. If I wasn't ready for something, they'd tell
me. They actually do have
reputations to protect.
I got my Advanced Nitrox and Deep Air card about 5 months after I got
certed, although I had more dives than you.
The Deep Air dive was 205fsw.
It was about the time I got my Trimix Blender's card.
Proceed at your own risk. :-)
Or, just dive in and see if you like it, the training that is.
I think that if you want to do it, feel comfortable with it,
then it's time. Good luck! Dan
Grumman-581
2007-04-09 01:55:05 UTC
Post by Greg Mossman
Maybe he can leave a photo of her pasted to the tank so we can know if
she's *worth* calling... <dirty-old-man-grin>
mag3
2007-04-09 02:32:20 UTC
Post by Grumman-581
Post by Greg Mossman
Maybe he can leave a photo of her pasted to the tank so we can know if
she's *worth* calling... <dirty-old-man-grin>
Sorry to disappoint, but I'm currently "unattached." :-)

____________________________________________
Regards,

Arnold
Grumman-581
2007-04-09 06:29:42 UTC
Post by mag3
Sorry to disappoint, but I'm currently "unattached." :-)
Damn, you're smarter than you appeared ! <grin>
Lee Bell
2007-04-09 01:57:35 UTC
Post by mag3
In preparation for my "Advanced Nitrox / Deco" course, I'm reviewing
concepts like SAC rate calculations.
I'm wondering if there are any decent algorithms for computing SAC for
"multi-level" dives or is it just
SOP to use the deepest depth and "total time."
Use a computer or watch (Citizen Hyper Aqualand) to give you average depth
and use that in your calculations.
mag3
2007-04-09 02:23:39 UTC
Post by Lee Bell
Post by mag3
In preparation for my "Advanced Nitrox / Deco" course, I'm reviewing
concepts like SAC rate calculations.
I'm wondering if there are any decent algorithms for computing SAC for
"multi-level" dives or is it just
SOP to use the deepest depth and "total time."
Use a computer or watch (Citizen Hyper Aqualand) to give you average depth
and use that in your calculations.
Thanks. I actually can get "average" depth from my current computer as it stores depth
and other stats every 15 seconds during the dive. I can easily plug that into Al's SAC
calculator.

____________________________________________
Regards,

Arnold
Lee Bell
2007-04-09 10:42:25 UTC
Post by mag3
Post by Lee Bell
Use a computer or watch (Citizen Hyper Aqualand) to give you average depth
and use that in your calculations.
Thanks. I actually can get "average" depth from my current computer as it stores depth
and other stats every 15 seconds during the dive. I can easily plug that into Al's SAC
calculator.
I didn't see Al's calculator, but considering the source, I'm sure it's
accurate. Still, I recommend calculating SAC yourself. Adjusting for depth
and pressure is a worthy learning experience, one that will help you keep in
mind that 3 ata of depth is 4 ata of pressure.

One more suggestion. Start paying a bit of attention to the conditions of
each dive you calculate SAC for, from the easy drift with the current, to
the no current casual tour of pretty reefs, to the battle up current. Also
give some consideration to your stress levels, things like being deeper than
normal, or under conditions you're not used to. All of these things will
change your gas consumption and, while your resting SAC is a valid tool for
planning future dives, your actual SAC is what determines whether or not you
get back to the surface with a reserve or fail to get back to the surface at
all.

Lee
mag3
2007-04-09 21:26:10 UTC
Post by Art Greenberg
You might be an exception, but generally speaking, one doesn't gain the
kind of skill you'll need to dive safely without actually diving. And
60 dives isn't enough to have the foundation you'll need to go on to
technical diving.
You're relatively young. You have plenty of time. Take your time. I
guarantee you'll enjoy all this at least as much if you do. And I
guarantee you won't be missing anything if you don't move so fast.
OMG Arnold you may be a nice kid, but diving with you would be like
sitting on gunpowder barrel and playing with matches. Time to grow
up. First answer yourself simple question - why do you dive? I have
strange impression that you have some kind of inferiority complex and
scuba is your way to compensate it.
What you lack is the experience that can tell you what your limits
are. Until then, you're relying on what your card "allows" you to do
And that's my first point, in a nutshell: experience breeds a good
diver as much or more than any class. Too much class can be dangerous
when you haven't yet honed your basic instincts.
My second point is, why rush it? Wake up and smell the roses. Except
for a handful of wrecks around the world, there's plenty of great
diving above 130'. What is so important below 130' that you can't
wait for a few more years of experience before getting there, even if

Three of you saying the same thing in essence is more than enough for me.

I will not be taking the class. I will not be doing any dives beyond my experience level.
I misunderstood the intent of the class vs. my own intentions. I really only wanted to stay
at 130fsw for a little more than 10 min (about 15 min, 20 max). There were some sites
in Tahiti that have coral formations at that depth I wanted to photograph. They can wait.
I hope they're still there when I *am* ready for it (these formations are dying rapidly),
but we'll cross that bridge when we get to it.

If this TDI class is training for "hard core" technical dives, then no, it would not be appropriate
at this time. At least I found this out before spending all kinds of cash and discovering it
wasn't right. And for that, I thank all of the above. For the same reasons I'm not ready
for any professional certs (DM etc.), I'm not ready for this either. Perhaps someday. In the
mean time, I look forward to both the NJ and FL. rec.scubans giving me more "experience"
with regular dives so that I can get to that point, at some point.

Thanks guys. I needed that.

____________________________________________
Regards,

Arnold
Art Greenberg
2007-04-09 22:06:13 UTC
I really only wanted to stay at 130fsw for a little more than 10 min
(about 15 min, 20 max). There were some sites in Tahiti that have
coral formations at that depth I wanted to photograph. They can wait.
I hope they're still there when I *am* ready for it (these formations
are dying rapidly), but we'll cross that bridge when we get to it.
60 dives, and you're carrying a camera? I elected not to until after
about 150. It took that long before I felt that I had the requisite
buoyancy control, trim, and ability to move in any direction without
using my hands.

Not to mention situational awareness and familiarity with my gas
consumption. Using a camera is a major distraction from the usual things

Consider what you're photographing, and how rare and fragile it is. Next
to your own well being, doing no harm to the environment you're diving
in should be your highest priority.
In the mean time, I look forward to both the NJ and FL. rec.scubans
giving me more "experience" with regular dives so that I can get to
that point, at some point.
Count on it.
--
Art Greenberg
artg at eclipse dot net
mag3
2007-04-10 00:00:05 UTC
Post by Art Greenberg
60 dives, and you're carrying a camera? I elected not to until after
about 150. It took that long before I felt that I had the requisite
buoyancy control, trim, and ability to move in any direction without
using my hands.
To be honest, I started carrying one at dive #20 (of course, not all the time).
I took the "Underwater Photography" specialty course as one of my 5 specialty
ratings, right after Nitrox. Land photography is a passion of mine (witness the
website). Naturally, that carried over to the "underwater realm." It's one of the
main reasons why I kept diving after my OW.
Post by Art Greenberg
Not to mention situational awareness and familiarity with my gas
consumption. Using a camera is a major distraction from the usual things
I don't ever let *anything* distract me from monitoring my gas consumption.
Where it (photography) has caused some distraction is in re: relative position
to the other divers in the group, and ensuring I don't invade their space, bump
into them, etc etc. My Palau dives helped with that a lot. After my camera flooded,
I simply just focused on diving and found I did a lot better. I'll admit it was hard.
There were things I really wanted to shoot. But, as stated earlier, they can wait.
Post by Art Greenberg
In the mean time, I look forward to both the NJ and FL. rec.scubans
giving me more "experience" with regular dives so that I can get to
that point, at some point.
Count on it.
Much appreciated. And looking forward to the Dutch "Pig Roast" again this year 06/02.

____________________________________________
Regards,

Arnold
Scott
2007-04-09 22:42:24 UTC
Post by mag3
If this TDI class is training for "hard core" technical dives, then no,
it would not be appropriate
Post by mag3
at this time. At least I found this out before spending all kinds of cash and discovering it
wasn't right. And for that, I thank all of the above. For the same reasons I'm not ready
for any professional certs (DM etc.), I'm not ready for this either. Perhaps someday. In the
mean time, I look forward to both the NJ and FL. rec.scubans giving me more "experience"
with regular dives so that I can get to that point, at some point.
Thanks guys. I needed that.
Dive man.

Every chance you get.

Except with people who are eager to sell you training.

Your open water is a learning permit.

Would you put your 16 year old daughter into a vette?

Relax, dive, and believe nothing that you hear, and half that you see.

99% of divers need no "tech" training, especially with few dives under their
belt.

Do your SAC calculations on an aluminum 80 and get back to us.

You can figure it out.

Don't let these guys sell you training you aren't ready for, and when you
feel you are ready, which means you need to get into mixed gasses and

You will find even *more* bullshit there.

I have a number of IANTD and TDI shingles, but I dive by none of what I was
taught in them.

After a while, common sense and the beatings from your elders will start to
sink in.
mag3
2007-04-09 22:55:53 UTC
Post by Scott
After a while, common sense and the beatings from your elders will start to
sink in.
Well the "beatings from my elders" have sure as Hell started to..... :-)

____________________________________________
Regards,

Arnold
Scott
2007-04-10 00:01:01 UTC
\>
Post by mag3
Post by Scott
After a while, common sense and the beatings from your elders will start to
sink in.
Well the "beatings from my elders" have sure as Hell started to..... :-)
Only because We already made all the mistakes, and because We care.

Other than Us, there is no one to offer the info you need to find "the
precious" without spending tons of money, and then coming back to Us anyway.

It is inevitable.
mag3
2007-04-10 00:56:27 UTC
Post by Scott
\>
Post by mag3
Post by Scott
After a while, common sense and the beatings from your elders will start
to
Post by mag3
Post by Scott
sink in.
Well the "beatings from my elders" have sure as Hell started to..... :-)
Only because We already made all the mistakes, and because We care.
Other than Us, there is no one to offer the info you need to find "the
precious" without spending tons of money, and then coming back to Us anyway.
It is inevitable.
And to that end, I will now ask the same question I asked Popeye about "Solo Diving"
when I first became a rec.scuban to those here who consider themselves "tech divers:"

When did you (and what made you) realize you were "ready" for it?

(Keeping in mind that when all is said and done, it must be something inside yourself
that says, "I'm ready," not what someone else (or some cert card) says....)

____________________________________________
Regards,

Arnold
Greg Mossman
2007-04-10 02:11:50 UTC
Post by mag3
And to that end, I will now ask the same question I asked Popeye about "Solo Diving"
when I first became a rec.scuban to those here who consider themselves "tech divers:"
When did you (and what made you) realize you were "ready" for it?
Like with the solo class, only after I had already done it on my own.
In Truk Lagoon, a very benign place for deep diving as the viz isn't
too terrible, there's always a mooring line, no currents or rough
surface conditions, and the Odyssey offered the safety feature of a
10' hang bar with tank/reg.

We were diving big tanks and were diving them relatively deep. During
the trip I made 14 dives deeper than 100', with four of those around
120', two past 130', and one deep bounce to 167'. Other than the
bounce, I spent significant time at depth, and eventually started to
incur some deco obligations even on the ultra-liberal Cochran and
diving nitrox. Mostly the computer wanted me to stop for up to 5
minutes at 10', which is nothing more than a long safety stop. Only
once did I incur a 20' "ceiling", but my slow ascent made that go away
before hitting it. These were around dives #120-140, after I had been
certified two years, and was winding up my DM training.

But this was play, and something I could do on my own. I had no
desire to take formal tech training at that point. Why? Back home, I
didn't have the opportunity to do four dives a day and incur deco
obligations on shallow dives, nor did I have the desire to go too
deep. It's a big difference going deep in the dark and cold. On warm
water trips, I found plenty to see in the shallows. I worked on
getting my instructor ticket.

I never even touched a camera underwater until someone loaned me one
on a dive off Moorea, dive #222. I got my own camera soon after, and
that kept me busy for another 40 dives, at which point I got back into
cold water diving in a big way with a dependable buddy. Having a
change of financial fortune around that time, I finally succumbed to
the tech bug, getting Draeger rebreather certified off Catalina Island
with dive #268, and doing my first dives on doubles at #276 in
preparation for finally taking the ANDI Technical Safe Air Diver
class. I sat through the class, bought gear, but ended up too busy
with work to do the drills and the dives.

Work took precedence over local diving for the next few years, as I
explored more warm-water locales at the expense of losing weekend
availability for cold water diving, took up videography and more
photography, and soon the idea of finishing my technical cert in the
local waters lost its appeal. Drysuits and hydration don't combine
well. So now I've signed myself up for a TDI Advanced Nitrox/Deco
Procedures course in Grand Cayman in June, where by that time I'll
have a total of 508 dives over 8 years, including 4 dives on doubles,
6 rebreather dives, 20 solo dives, and probably 80 of my dives below
100' (15 of those below 130').

I hope I'm finally ready for tech training, but I'm still nervous and
I'm going to approach this far more seriously than I've ever taken
open water diving because it is far more serious. At this point, I
don't need the class to do dives to the 150' range with short deco
obligations since I've already done that. I do need the class, and
the skills I'll hopefully learn in it, to progress on to the Extended
Range and Trimix classes that will follow in time.
mag3
2007-04-10 02:59:05 UTC
Post by Greg Mossman
Post by mag3
And to that end, I will now ask the same question I asked Popeye about "Solo Diving"
when I first became a rec.scuban to those here who consider themselves "tech divers:"
When did you (and what made you) realize you were "ready" for it?
[SNIP]
Post by Greg Mossman
I never even touched a camera underwater until someone loaned me one
on a dive off Moorea, dive #222.
Post by mag3
My second point is, why rush it? Wake up and smell the roses.
As it turns out, the very site that is causing all this consternation
(ie. the site I so desperately want to photograph) is called "The Roses"
and it's right off of Moorea (right off the cost of Milepost 14.5), near the
Sheraton Moorea Lagoon Resort. It's the montipora coral formations
between 30-40meters I wanted to photograph.
Post by Greg Mossman
I hope I'm finally ready for tech training, but I'm still nervous and
I'm going to approach this far more seriously than I've ever taken
open water diving because it is far more serious. At this point, I
don't need the class to do dives to the 150' range with short deco
obligations since I've already done that. I do need the class, and
the skills I'll hopefully learn in it, to progress on to the Extended
Range and Trimix classes that will follow in time.
Thank you.... for an honest answer to an honest question. I realize
that the answer is something one can only find in one's self, but it's
helpful to know how it worked for others.

Just out of curiosity, what kind of diving do you want to do now that
requires this tech training at this point?

____________________________________________
Regards,

Arnold
Greg Mossman
2007-04-10 03:57:43 UTC
Post by mag3
Post by Greg Mossman
Post by mag3
And to that end, I will now ask the same question I asked Popeye about "Solo Diving"
when I first became a rec.scuban to those here who consider themselves "tech divers:"
When did you (and what made you) realize you were "ready" for it?
[SNIP]
Post by Greg Mossman
I never even touched a camera underwater until someone loaned me one
on a dive off Moorea, dive #222.
Post by mag3
My second point is, why rush it? Wake up and smell the roses.
As it turns out, the very site that is causing all this consternation
(ie. the site I so desperately want to photograph) is called "The Roses"
and it's right off of Moorea (right off the cost of Milepost 14.5), near the
Sheraton Moorea Lagoon Resort. It's the montipora coral formations
between 30-40meters I wanted to photograph.
Post by Greg Mossman
I hope I'm finally ready for tech training, but I'm still nervous and
I'm going to approach this far more seriously than I've ever taken
open water diving because it is far more serious. At this point, I
don't need the class to do dives to the 150' range with short deco
obligations since I've already done that. I do need the class, and
the skills I'll hopefully learn in it, to progress on to the Extended
Range and Trimix classes that will follow in time.
Thank you.... for an honest answer to an honest question. I realize
that the answer is something one can only find in one's self, but it's
helpful to know how it worked for others.
Just out of curiosity, what kind of diving do you want to do now that
requires this tech training at this point?
Deep diving. At this point, I simply want to go deep because it's
certification, if I want to further my training and challenge my
experience, I'm left with cave, tech, ice, and CCRs. Ice is too cold
and CCRs are too expensive. A cavern/intro-to-cave class will
certainly be in my future, but I like coral reef diving the best and
I've always wondered what it looks like on a deep wall past 200' or
so. Maybe it's all the same, but I might as well find out.

In addition to the sheer thrill of going deeper, I'm looking forward
to learning some new skills that at the least may improve my open
water diving. I'll find out what all the fuss is about with the long
hose, get feedback on my buoyancy and trim, survive a few harrassment
drills.

My near future plans are to take the Extended Range class in Bonaire,
maybe by the end of this year depending on how I do in June and time
permitting, and dive the Windjammer. A technical wreck class is next
on my list, and eventually, probably after gaining some cold water
tech/wreck experience, I'll take a trimix class and make another trip
to Truk to do it right. If it takes five years or more to get that
far, so be it. I'll hopefully have close to 1,000 dives by then and
be even wiser.
Grumman-581
2007-04-10 08:02:04 UTC
Post by Greg Mossman
I've always wondered what it looks like on a deep wall past 200' or
so. Maybe it's all the same, but I might as well find out.
Basically, it looks blue...

<snicker>

Seriously though... On Santa Rosa Wall in Coz, the visibility was good
enough that at 180 ft, I could still see down another 200 ft... Same
sort of terrain, just a little darker and a bit more blue... If the
terrain changes, it's probably further than I would want to go on open
circuit...
-hh
2007-04-10 10:43:58 UTC
Post by mag3
Post by Greg Mossman
Post by Greg Mossman
My second point is, why rush it? Wake up and smell the roses.
As it turns out, the very site that is causing all this consternation
(ie. the site I so desperately want to photograph) is called "The Roses"
and it's right off of Moorea (right off the cost of Milepost 14.5), near the
Sheraton Moorea Lagoon Resort. It's the montipora coral formations
between 30-40meters I wanted to photograph.
30-40m is 100-130fsw, which is within the limits for air. As such,
take a year or two to get good at photography and at 100m depths, then
head back. You'll need an allignment of having a good day for
yourself (Narcosis), good water conditions and good weather conditions
(sunlight) and some feedback of different compositions. After 3 or 4
of these, you'll probably have a good photo. At a rate of one trip to
Tahiti per yer, expect it to be a five (5) year project to get that
particular photograph.
Post by mag3
Post by Greg Mossman
I hope I'm finally ready for tech training, but I'm still nervous and
I'm going to approach this far more seriously than I've ever taken
open water diving because it is far more serious. At this point, I
don't need the class to do dives to the 150' range with short deco
obligations since I've already done that. I do need the class, and
the skills I'll hopefully learn in it, to progress on to the Extended
Range and Trimix classes that will follow in time.
Thank you.... for an honest answer to an honest question. I realize
that the answer is something one can only find in one's self, but it's
helpful to know how it worked for others.
In general, I suspect that when you find divers with hundreds of dives
moving into a new area, its probably typically because they've already
nibbled along at least the fringes of a particular area, have
recognized that it exceeds their risk tolerance (not necessarily the
same as their comfort zone, per se) and as such, have recognized the
appropriateness of changing, if they want to continue to pursue,
particularly if they want to go a bit further.

For example, several years ago, a friend & I were going to dive the
Windjammer in Bonaire on air. Well, maybe it was more than merely
"several years" ;-). We got blown out by weather back then, so it
didn't happen. Contemplating that same dive since then, I don't think
that I'd really want to do it on air. Thus, the interest/need to
pursue Trimix to accomplish that dive (assuming that it remains a
goal).

-hh
mag3
2007-04-10 21:11:10 UTC
Post by -hh
Post by mag3
Post by Greg Mossman
My second point is, why rush it? Wake up and smell the roses.
As it turns out, the very site that is causing all this consternation
(ie. the site I so desperately want to photograph) is called "The Roses"
and it's right off of Moorea (right off the cost of Milepost 14.5), near the
Sheraton Moorea Lagoon Resort. It's the montipora coral formations
between 30-40meters I wanted to photograph.
30-40m is 100-130fsw, which is within the limits for air.
But only for 10 minutes or so, by the PADI Air tables (or more importantly
by my ultra-conservative computer). I wasn't sure if that would be enough
time to explore the site at that constant depth and get the photos I needed.
I was hoping for 15-20min. I was thinking perhaps EAN24 or thereabouts.

BTW, for the record, my deepest so far has been 108fsw. Another at 103,
and several in the 90's. The 108 was on EAN32 which put me at 1.36 PO2.
Close. But I was only there for 2 min or so and came back up to the 90's.
And no, I can't say I've been "narced" yet. At least not underwater. I have
"laughing gas" in my dad's dentist chair. :-)
Post by -hh
As such,
take a year or two to get good at photography and at 100m depths, then
head back. You'll need an allignment of having a good day for
yourself (Narcosis), good water conditions and good weather conditions
(sunlight) and some feedback of different compositions. After 3 or 4
of these, you'll probably have a good photo.
Post by -hh
At a rate of one trip to
Tahiti per yer, expect it to be a five (5) year project to get that
particular photograph.
More like 10. Tahiti and Palau will be competing with each other for my time and
financial resources. Furthermore, I haven't even yet set foot in the Caribbean.
Post by -hh
In general, I suspect that when you find divers with hundreds of dives
moving into a new area, its probably typically because they've already
nibbled along at least the fringes of a particular area, have
recognized that it exceeds their risk tolerance (not necessarily the
same as their comfort zone, per se) and as such, have recognized the
appropriateness of changing, if they want to continue to pursue,
particularly if they want to go a bit further.
Yes. Greg mentioned something similar when talking about "trying things out
on your own." I guess my philosophy has always been to make "informed"
decisions about things, thus requiring "education" before "tryout on my own."

In this case, a bit too much education, as Greg made quite the valid point in re:
"making attempts at dives your card says you can do but for which you might not

____________________________________________
Regards,

Arnold
-hh
2007-04-11 00:39:54 UTC
Post by mag3
Post by -hh
30-40m is 100-130fsw, which is within the limits for air.
But only for 10 minutes or so, by the PADI Air tables (or more importantly
by my ultra-conservative computer). I wasn't sure if that would be enough
time to explore the site at that constant depth and get the photos I needed.
I was hoping for 15-20min. I was thinking perhaps EAN24 or thereabouts.
This is where a bit of historical knowledge allows you to gain
perspective:

On the "old" (1980s vintage) PADI air table, 20 minutes at 130fsw
requires only a 4 minute deco hang at 10fsw...and this assumes 60ft/
min ascent rates.

As such, assuming that you prepare for having enough air for your
total consumption - - plus whatever extra hang time a modern and
conservative (or is it "liability paranoid"?) dive computer will pad
that out to be - - is the objective risk of staying longer than just
10 minutes really all that huge?
Post by mag3
Post by -hh
At a rate of one trip to
Tahiti per yer, expect it to be a five (5) year project to get that
particular photograph.
More like 10. Tahiti and Palau will be competing with each other for my time and
financial resources. Furthermore, I haven't even yet set foot in the Caribbean.
Either way, the point is that there's no substitute for time when it
comes to making a good bottle of wine...and many other similar
pursuits :-)
Post by mag3
I guess my philosophy has always been to make "informed"
decisions about things, thus requiring "education" before "tryout on my own."
Nothing wrong with doing the research before doing the doing.

-hh
Art Greenberg
2007-04-14 20:26:05 UTC
Post by mag3
And no, I can't say I've been "narced" yet. At least not underwater.
Yes, you have. Guaranteed.
--
Art Greenberg
artg at eclipse dot net
mag3
2007-04-14 21:22:15 UTC
Post by Art Greenberg
Post by mag3
And no, I can't say I've been "narced" yet. At least not underwater.
Yes, you have. Guaranteed.
I may very well have been. I'm just saying I can't say I have because I never felt
anything. It sure didn't feel like my dad's laughing gas at all. Nowhere near it.

What does it feel like (to you at least)?

____________________________________________
Regards,

Arnold
Scott
2007-04-14 22:26:22 UTC
Post by mag3
Post by Art Greenberg
Post by mag3
And no, I can't say I've been "narced" yet. At least not underwater.
Yes, you have. Guaranteed.
I may very well have been. I'm just saying I can't say I have because I never felt
anything. It sure didn't feel like my dad's laughing gas at all. Nowhere near it.
What does it feel like (to you at least)?
I would have sworn I didn't get narked even at 200 feet until I started
diving helium. It isn't like taking a hit of N2O, but the mechanism of
action is the same.

It comes on slowly, and combined with factors such as your field of vision
is reduced due to the mask, your movement is restricted by gear and exposure
protection, so there are lots of things going on besides catching a buzz

The effects vary a bit person to person as well, but tests have measured
impairment at 33 fsw (in chambers), without exception.

I had one diver go to sleep on me at 80 fsw. Laid on the bottom, eyes wide
open and breathing, but unresponsive, like hypnosis.

I have a little test I give people.

I write on a slate;

First Name Last _______________________________

Last Name First _______________________________

And have them fill it in at 100 feet or so.

The get it wrong every time, and then look at it when we are back on land.
They are always stunned, and instant believers.
mag3
2007-04-14 23:44:05 UTC
Post by Scott
The effects vary a bit person to person as well, but tests have measured
impairment at 33 fsw (in chambers), without exception.
I had one diver go to sleep on me at 80 fsw. Laid on the bottom, eyes wide
open and breathing, but unresponsive, like hypnosis.
I have a little test I give people.
I write on a slate;
First Name Last _______________________________
Last Name First _______________________________
And have them fill it in at 100 feet or so.
The get it wrong every time, and then look at it when we are back on land.
They are always stunned, and instant believers.
I did a similar test when doing my "Deep Dive" adventure dive for AOW. I had to
do a timed task on the surface, and then the same timed task at 95'. I completed
the task underwater only 5 seconds longer than on the surface. The purpose of the
test obviously being to demonstrate the effects of being narced.

Like I say, maybe I have been. But in all my dives (even those below 100fsw), it never
seemed as if I suffered any loss of mental perception or response. Whenever a DM
signaled to me (eg. "OK? OK!" etc.) I've always responded instantaneously. I've always
kept up with monitoring my gas consumption. I've always responded immediately to
any alarms from my computer etc. etc., even when in cold water (55F) at Dutch. I've
always been alert to other divers having problems.

As for your test above, it actually took me a second or two to figure out even on the
surface. But then again, maybe I'm a little "narced" now, having just had several
slices of sausage pizza! :-)

____________________________________________
Regards,

Arnold
Al Wells
2007-04-15 14:02:25 UTC
Post by mag3
I did a similar test when doing my "Deep Dive" adventure dive for AOW. I had to
do a timed task on the surface, and then the same timed task at 95'. I completed
the task underwater only 5 seconds longer than on the surface. The purpose of the
test obviously being to demonstrate the effects of being narced.
I don't think tests like this are all that valid. In my experience, at
the AOW or "Deep Diver" specialty depths you can focus on a particular
task and easily get it done (especially if you practiced it first on the
surface). A true test would be something unexpected and spontaneous.
Post by mag3
Like I say, maybe I have been. But in all my dives (even those below 100fsw), it never
seemed as if I suffered any loss of mental perception or response. Whenever a DM
signaled to me (eg. "OK? OK!" etc.) I've always responded instantaneously. I've always
kept up with monitoring my gas consumption. I've always responded immediately to
any alarms from my computer etc. etc., even when in cold water (55F) at Dutch. I've
always been alert to other divers having problems.
Such is the indidious nature of the narc at these depths. There is no
perception of impairment. You can function at the things you are
concentrating on and the things that are almost like motor functions for
experienced divers (like watching your gas supply). You feel relaxed and
pretty good. You are, however, a little slower at processing things that
don't quite make sense at first look, and your decision making judgement
is impaired. There is a very good reason for the saying "Plan your dive

At deeper depths, you may still feel pretty good and unaware of any
impairment, or you may be aware of having to work a little harder to
concentrate on tasks. You may experience the "dark narc", where you
become acutely aware of visual and thought narrowing and the scary
perception that you are completely out of control. I experienced this
once, at 170' in a dark spooky environment, before I really had enough
experience to be diving to that depth. I was with a very experienced
buddy, and remembered the 3 C's: Communicate that there is a problem,
Confess that you are narced and afraid, Conform with your buddy's
instructions. (ok, the last one should be "comply", but these things
weren't written by English teachers.)

I did a series of cave dives one day with a familiar buddy, and on one
dive we wanted to try some different sized tanks, so we ended up doing a
dive to 100' with him on nitrox and me with 35% helium. It was a fairly
simple dive, a circuit that we had set up on the previous dives, but I
noticed that he was much slower than I usually perceive him to be at
performing the tasks that were assigned to him in our plan.

In any cave in FL deeper than 150' (except the ones that are open to
only a small group), there is an absolute CF of old lines that were put
in by air divers years ago. You look at it and wonder what they were
thinking. The people who put these lines in are familiar and respected
names to most in the community.

You just need to be aware of this. A reef dive to 140' in warm clear
water is within many experienced divers' comfort zone, but a cave dive
or wreck penetration at that depth is taking on additional unecessary
risk.
mag3
2007-04-15 14:22:29 UTC
Post by Al Wells
Such is the indidious nature of the narc at these depths.
[SNIP]
Post by Al Wells
You just need to be aware of this. A reef dive to 140' in warm clear
water is within many experienced divers' comfort zone, but a cave dive
or wreck penetration at that depth is taking on additional unecessary
risk.
Fair enough. With this perspective, I can now start to concentrate on
the subtleties of my behavior underwater to see if I start to notice minute
differences.

Thanks.

____________________________________________
Regards,

Arnold
Scott
2007-04-15 16:50:53 UTC
Post by mag3
Fair enough. With this perspective, I can now start to concentrate on
the subtleties of my behavior underwater to see if I start to notice minute
differences.
The thing is, as Al pointed out, until you get to the extreme end of
narcosis where you are simply wacked and you know it without a doubt, not
only will you not notice, but you will not have the ability, clarity or
perception to tell the difference.
Carl Nisarel
2007-04-15 16:57:59 UTC
Post by Scott
The thing is, as Al pointed out, until you get to the extreme end of
narcosis where you are simply wacked and you know it without a doubt, not
only will you not notice, but you will not have the ability, clarity or
perception to tell the difference.
As you demonstrate with just about every post, Scotty.
mag3
2007-04-16 00:20:31 UTC
Post by Al Wells
Post by mag3
Fair enough. With this perspective, I can now start to concentrate on
the subtleties of my behavior underwater to see if I start to notice
minute
Post by mag3
differences.
The thing is, as Al pointed out, until you get to the extreme end of
narcosis where you are simply wacked and you know it without a doubt, not
only will you not notice, but you will not have the ability, clarity or
perception to tell the difference.
Understood. And I realize it will take time since I need to progress to those depths

Perhaps as I dive with my fellow rec.scubans, I can ask some of them to throw me a
task or two at depth (such as your test) unannounced, so I can start to notice.

____________________________________________
Regards,

Arnold
Dan Bracuk
2007-04-16 03:35:34 UTC
mag3 <zmpmag3-***@yahoo.com> pounded away at his keyboard
resulting in:
:
:Perhaps as I dive with my fellow rec.scubans, I can ask some of them to throw me a
:task or two at depth (such as your test) unannounced, so I can start to notice.

Don't count on it when you dive with me. I dive for fun. I'll be

Dan Bracuk
If we don't succeed, we run the risk of failure.

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"Magilla"
2007-04-16 03:13:29 UTC
Post by Dan Bracuk
Don't count on it when you dive with me. I dive for fun. I'll be
Ditto here Arnold.

I'll only notice if you destroy vast portions of reef. ---> ;-) <---

Truthfully, those get-togethers are social events, and are pretty much
considered to be comfortable levels for all expected.

Yes, I'm still planning on Looe Key.

Curtis
mag3
2007-04-16 07:52:34 UTC
Post by "Magilla"
Post by Dan Bracuk
Don't count on it when you dive with me. I dive for fun. I'll be
Ditto here Arnold.
I'll only notice if you destroy vast portions of reef. ---> ;-) <---
Truthfully, those get-togethers are social events, and are pretty much
considered to be comfortable levels for all expected.
Yes, I'm still planning on Looe Key.
Curtis
Fair enough guys. Looking forward to it. Dan when you're ready, e-mail me with the
registration details etc. Also, let me know if you're still interested in going later on with my
group as well and which day. I'll set it up.

____________________________________________
Regards,

Arnold
Dan Bracuk
2007-04-16 22:19:42 UTC
mag3 <zmpmag3-***@yahoo.com> pounded away at his keyboard
resulting in:

:Fair enough guys. Looking forward to it. Dan when you're ready, e-mail me with the
:registration details etc. Also, let me know if you're still interested in going later on with my
:group as well and which day. I'll set it up.

Registration details? I was kind of hoping one of the Floridians
would canvas the group to see who is coming and then select a dive
shop based on that number. No sense getting a six pack for 12 people.

Dan Bracuk
If we don't succeed, we run the risk of failure.

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mag3
2007-04-17 10:00:28 UTC
Post by Dan Bracuk
:Fair enough guys. Looking forward to it. Dan when you're ready, e-mail me with the
:registration details etc. Also, let me know if you're still interested in going later on with my
:group as well and which day. I'll set it up.
Registration details? I was kind of hoping one of the Floridians
would canvas the group to see who is coming and then select a dive
shop based on that number. No sense getting a six pack for 12 people.
Ah, OK. Well, if that doesn't happen by 2nd week of June, let me know and I'll look
into it.

____________________________________________
Regards,

Arnold

El Stroko Guapo
2007-04-15 15:01:30 UTC
Post by Al Wells
Post by mag3
I did a similar test when doing my "Deep Dive" adventure dive for AOW. I had to
do a timed task on the surface, and then the same timed task at 95'. I completed
the task underwater only 5 seconds longer than on the surface. The purpose of the
test obviously being to demonstrate the effects of being narced.
I don't think tests like this are all that valid. In my experience, at
the AOW or "Deep Diver" specialty depths you can focus on a particular
task and easily get it done (especially if you practiced it first on the
surface). A true test would be something unexpected and spontaneous.
Perzackly. Add to that the expectation (requirement?) that it has to
take longer at depth.....
Post by Al Wells
Post by mag3
Like I say, maybe I have been. But in all my dives (even those below 100fsw), it never
seemed as if I suffered any loss of mental perception or response. Whenever a DM
signaled to me (eg. "OK? OK!" etc.) I've always responded instantaneously. I've always
kept up with monitoring my gas consumption. I've always responded immediately to
any alarms from my computer etc. etc., even when in cold water (55F) at Dutch. I've
always been alert to other divers having problems.
Such is the indidious nature of the narc at these depths. There is no
perception of impairment. You can function at the things you are
concentrating on and the things that are almost like motor functions for
experienced divers (like watching your gas supply). You feel relaxed and
pretty good. You are, however, a little slower at processing things that
don't quite make sense at first look, and your decision making judgement
is impaired. There is a very good reason for the saying "Plan your dive
At deeper depths, you may still feel pretty good and unaware of any
impairment, or you may be aware of having to work a little harder to
concentrate on tasks. You may experience the "dark narc", where you
become acutely aware of visual and thought narrowing and the scary
perception that you are completely out of control. I experienced this
once, at 170' in a dark spooky environment, before I really had enough
experience to be diving to that depth. I was with a very experienced
buddy, and remembered the 3 C's: Communicate that there is a problem,
Confess that you are narced and afraid, Conform with your buddy's
instructions. (ok, the last one should be "comply", but these things
weren't written by English teachers.)
I did a series of cave dives one day with a familiar buddy, and on one
dive we wanted to try some different sized tanks, so we ended up doing a
dive to 100' with him on nitrox and me with 35% helium. It was a fairly
simple dive, a circuit that we had set up on the previous dives, but I
noticed that he was much slower than I usually perceive him to be at
performing the tasks that were assigned to him in our plan.
In any cave in FL deeper than 150' (except the ones that are open to
only a small group), there is an absolute CF of old lines that were put
in by air divers years ago. You look at it and wonder what they were
thinking. The people who put these lines in are familiar and respected
names to most in the community.
You just need to be aware of this. A reef dive to 140' in warm clear
water is within many experienced divers' comfort zone, but a cave dive
or wreck penetration at that depth is taking on additional unecessary
risk.
Good post.

esg
"Magilla"
2007-04-15 17:49:58 UTC
(Arnold)
Post by Al Wells
Post by mag3
I did a similar test when doing my "Deep Dive" adventure dive for AOW. I
95'. I completed
the task underwater only 5 seconds longer than on the surface. The purpose of the
test obviously being to demonstrate the effects of being narced.
(Al)
Post by Al Wells
I don't think tests like this are all that valid. In my experience, at
the AOW or "Deep Diver" specialty depths you can focus on a particular
task and easily get it done (especially if you practiced it first on the
surface). A true test would be something unexpected and spontaneous.
(Mike)
Perzackly. Add to that the expectation (requirement?) that it has to take
longer at depth.....
Remember that "task" quite well, did it in about the same time surface
as depth. Gave me a false sense of security, thinking I was more tolerant
of the Nitrogen than the average "Joe".

Experience has changed my perspective.

Curtis
El Stroko Guapo
2007-04-15 19:50:34 UTC
Post by "Magilla"
(Arnold)
Post by Al Wells
Post by mag3
I did a similar test when doing my "Deep Dive" adventure dive for AOW. I
95'. I completed
the task underwater only 5 seconds longer than on the surface. The purpose of the
test obviously being to demonstrate the effects of being narced.
(Al)
Post by Al Wells
I don't think tests like this are all that valid. In my experience, at
the AOW or "Deep Diver" specialty depths you can focus on a particular
task and easily get it done (especially if you practiced it first on the
surface). A true test would be something unexpected and spontaneous.
(Mike)
Perzackly. Add to that the expectation (requirement?) that it has to take
longer at depth.....
Remember that "task" quite well, did it in about the same time surface
as depth. Gave me a false sense of security, thinking I was more tolerant
of the Nitrogen than the average "Joe".
Experience has changed my perspective.
Curtis
Yup. That AOW BS just perpetuates the myth that you are 1/4 narc'd at
50', 1/2 at 100 and full at 200. (And, of course, a lot less narc'd in
Denver than in Miami.)

Then the poor dweeb actually does get narc'd and hasn't a clue as to
what's going on or what to do.

esg
Scott
2007-04-15 16:47:08 UTC
Post by mag3
As for your test above, it actually took me a second or two to figure out even on the
surface. But then again, maybe I'm a little "narced" now, having just had several
slices of sausage pizza! :-)
The part that sucks is that I show it to them and tell them before the dive;

It's the same. The answer is the same.

The other thing that is fun is to take a stage bottle with 21/40 in it down.

They are on air, you give them the mix and let them breathe it for a couple
minutes and it is like someone turned on a light.
Art Greenberg
2007-04-16 04:26:35 UTC
Post by mag3
I may very well have been. I'm just saying I can't say I have because
I never felt anything. It sure didn't feel like my dad's laughing gas
at all. Nowhere near it.
Its a physiological certainty. Higher than normal pressure of nitrogen
changes the way the nervous system works. (Some think that oxygen can
cause similar effects, hence there may be no advantage in breathing EAN
with respect to narcosis.)

The effects vary. Sometimes subtle, not at all noticeable, like a little
anesthesia. Sometimes not at all subtle - as Al referred to it, "dark
narc". Some have said they become paranoid for no apparent reason.

An no, you don't need to go to 200 feet on air to experience serious
narcosis. It happened once to me at 80 feet. Don't know why. Maybe I
wasn't as well hydrated as usual, maybe I descended faster than usual,
maybe the vis was low and I was disoriented. It was scary.
Post by mag3
What does it feel like (to you at least)?
See above.

My most usual clue ... I deploy a line on almost every wreck dive
(except on upright intact wrecks, sometimes). I do it so much, I should
be able to manage it quickly and correctly every time. No such luck. And
I know when I've screwed up, too. Its like my hands just won't do what I
want them to do. So I'll go to Dutch, and practice at 25 feet, and it
goes perfectly. Go back out on an open ocean dive to 80-90 feet, and I'm
ham handed again.
--
Art Greenberg
artg at eclipse dot net
Art Greenberg
2007-04-10 02:16:21 UTC
Post by mag3
And to that end, I will now ask the same question I asked Popeye
about "Solo Diving" when I first became a rec.scuban to those here
who consider themselves "tech divers:"
When did you (and what made you) realize you were "ready" for it?
(Keeping in mind that when all is said and done, it must be something
inside yourself that says, "I'm ready," not what someone else (or
some cert card) says....)
Never. I don't feel invincible. If I ever do, it is time for me to stop
diving.

I have an advantage - a buddy for life. Team aspects of diving took us a
long time to hone. To be honest, we're still working on it. But that is
part of the fun, and it is an investment that pays big dividends.

Besides, I don't imagine solo diving could be anywhere near as much fun
as diving with Tina.
--
Art Greenberg
artg at eclipse dot net
mag3
2007-04-10 02:24:35 UTC
Post by Art Greenberg
Post by mag3
And to that end, I will now ask the same question I asked Popeye
about "Solo Diving" when I first became a rec.scuban to those here
who consider themselves "tech divers:"
When did you (and what made you) realize you were "ready" for it?
(Keeping in mind that when all is said and done, it must be something
inside yourself that says, "I'm ready," not what someone else (or
some cert card) says....)
Never. I don't feel invincible. If I ever do, it is time for me to stop
diving.
I have an advantage - a buddy for life. Team aspects of diving took us a
long time to hone. To be honest, we're still working on it. But that is
part of the fun, and it is an investment that pays big dividends.
Besides, I don't imagine solo diving could be anywhere near as much fun
as diving with Tina.
Sorry.... I meant in re: "Tech Diving" not "Solo Diving."

:-)

____________________________________________
Regards,

Arnold
Grumman-581
2007-04-10 07:50:12 UTC
Post by mag3
And to that end, I will now ask the same question I asked Popeye about "Solo Diving"
when I first became a rec.scuban to those here who consider themselves "tech divers:"
When did you (and what made you) realize you were "ready" for it?
I taught myself how to dive and it was solo... I figured that if I was
going to make mistakes, I might as well do it in private... Well,
except for Darwin... I guess he was kind of watching over me... <grin>
mag3
2007-04-16 01:32:48 UTC
Ok, let's try to summarize a bit. About "experience" in general, and being "narced" in
particular.
Post by mag3
I may very well have been. I'm just saying I can't say I have because I never felt
anything. It sure didn't feel like my dad's laughing gas at all. Nowhere near it.
What does it feel like (to you at least)?
I would have sworn I didn't get narked even at 200 feet until I started
diving helium. It isn't like taking a hit of N2O, but the mechanism of
action is the same.
It comes on slowly, and combined with factors such as your field of vision
is reduced due to the mask, your movement is restricted by gear and exposure
protection, so there are lots of things going on besides catching a buzz
At deeper depths, you may still feel pretty good and unaware of any
impairment, or you may be aware of having to work a little harder to
concentrate on tasks. You may experience the "dark narc", where you
become acutely aware of visual and thought narrowing and the scary
perception that you are completely out of control. I experienced this
once, at 170' in a dark spooky environment, before I really had enough
experience to be diving to that depth.
And Regarding my original AOW Test, Several of you said things to the effect
Post by mag3
Remember that "task" quite well, did it in about the same time surface
as depth. Gave me a false sense of security, thinking I was more tolerant
of the Nitrogen than the average "Joe".
Experience has changed my perspective.
OK, I got all of that. It seems though from listening to all of you that
becoming an "experienced" diver is a little "Catch-22ish." In order to get
the experiences I need to be considered "experienced," I need to do dives I'm
not yet sufficiently "experienced" to do (eg. dive at deep enough depths to
know what a true "dark narc" feels like so I can then have perspective on the
lesser gradations of it). BTW, I accept on your word that I've been narced,
even though I could not perceive any significant signs/symptoms.

I guess it just comes down to having a slow progression of experiences over time
and just going a little further each time with good mentors alongside for backup.
I look forward then to planning out some long range "experience" goals with our NJ
and FL contingent of rec.scubans, so eventually I can get a relative idea of when
to know for myself when I'm "ready" for a new or advanced skill. 'Cause in the end,
I know I'll have to make those decisions.

Al/Art - Hope to see you at the Dutch "Pig Roast" then if not sooner (06/02).
I did decide BTW to take the Dry Suit course in May there, so I may be there for the
DUI/Bare Dry Suit D & P show they're having.

Curtis, hope we're still on for Dan's Looe Key dive on 06/24.

____________________________________________
Regards,

Arnold

Visit my Travel Photo Website: http://www.mag3.biz/travel_photos/home_page.html

Absolutely 100% SPAM free!!!! HONEST!!! :-)
Al Wells
2007-04-16 12:52:01 UTC
Post by mag3
OK, I got all of that. It seems though from listening to all of you that
becoming an "experienced" diver is a little "Catch-22ish." In order to get
the experiences I need to be considered "experienced," I need to do dives I'm
not yet sufficiently "experienced" to do (eg. dive at deep enough depths to
know what a true "dark narc" feels like so I can then have perspective on the
lesser gradations of it). BTW, I accept on your word that I've been narced,
even though I could not perceive any significant signs/symptoms.
Everyone has to be inexperienced sometime. Just go diving to have fun,
in the ocean, without the instructors and classes, and more than
enough stupid shit will happen. There are thousands of really good
dives to do that are less than 130 ft and not inside anything. Drills
and classes don't make you experienced - only real diving can do that.
Post by mag3
Al/Art - Hope to see you at the Dutch "Pig Roast" then if not sooner (06/02).
I did decide BTW to take the Dry Suit course in May there, so I may be there for the
DUI/Bare Dry Suit D & P show they're having.
Not sure about June 2, but I plan to be there sometime in May. We'll
stay in touch.
"Magilla"
2007-04-17 00:11:13 UTC
Post by Al Wells
Post by mag3
Al/Art - Hope to see you at the Dutch "Pig Roast" then if not sooner (06/02).
I did decide BTW to take the Dry Suit course in May there, so I may be there for the
DUI/Bare Dry Suit D & P show they're having.
Not sure about June 2, but I plan to be there sometime in May. We'll
stay in touch.
June 2nd is easy for me, be heading over to Tampa.

Kenney Chesney, with Sugarland one of two opening acts.

Y'all have fun diving, I'm dry for that weekend.......on the outside,
anyways.

Curtis
Al Wells
2007-04-17 00:53:34 UTC